IndyMac Swift Boaters Strike Back!

Time to gather a rabble and get the pitchforks out

DJF

You know what’s truly scary though? The amazing numbers of sheeple out there who believe this stuff and vote accordingly. We have truly become an Idiocracy. The toxic cocktail of ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity has taken over this country. We should all be afraid of the direction of this country if things don’t change soon. Far too many stupid, ignorant, arrogant people have sway over the direction of this country now. They’ve become their own voting bloc. Scary.

BTW, can anyone link to a definitive debunking of the accusations of the Swift Boaters? A cursory examination of wikipedia only results in the description of the term and the controversy which created and surrounds it, not any sort of evidence that the folks making accusations against Kerry were actually lying.

BR,

These guys do to corrupt politicians what you (and others) do to corrupt capitalists. They call them out, shed light on their fraud, and attempt to hold them accountable.

I don’t know your motivation for ranting about bad corporate actors, and I don’t care. Exposing them is beneficial to our system and our society. The same holds for those who expose shameful politicians.

In some ways, these swift boaters are doing a tougher job. You’ve gained notariety and adolation for calling out capitalist crooks. These guys get nothing but insults for burning the crooked politicians.

I seem to have missed your anger when similar folks made up stories about John McCain having an adulterous affair. Could it be you only despise political hacks of one flavor?

Well, I’m with the Dr. up there.

Kerry could have “debunked” the Swift boat guys if he released his military records…waiting…waiting…

Since he couldn’t have been bothered to actually prove they were as despicable as Kerry claimed they were, well, in my book for a politician that’s as good as confirming what the Swiftboat guys said.

Of course Schumer didn’t directly cause Indymac’s failure either. It would have failed eventually, but he probably hastened its demise.

Think of Schumer as Kevorkian.

*Snif* Punch line?

IndyMac are a bunch of whiny bitches, but if you’re going to reject out-of-hand any report driven by PR firms with partisan affiliations, the newspapers might as well be a lot smaller (without objection from me). Oh, and while I think what happens in Vietnam should stay in Vietnam, I’m curious to know whether you think Senator Kerry was ever in Cambodia.

Here’s a site that pretty much debunks EVERY SINGLE FACT that the Swiftboat liars said.

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

Judging by the rabid comments, looks like BR struck a nerve.

I suppose when fabrications about McCain’s affairs affect finance, BR will write about them.

As to the “facts” behind the swiftboating of Kerry, see Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry’s War Record

The site attempts to be non-partisan in debunking campaign claims and succeeds to a large extent. BTW, it also debunks smears of McCain, although I didn’t find anything addressing the alleged affair. As it has not become a campaign issue, it may have not been considered worth spending time on.

What really should be investigated are Fannie’s and Freddie’s large contributions to, and political influence over, members of Congress.

@Dr. K.N.: You have a situation with vague differences in memories of a traumatic event 35 years later, and you’re looking for definitive proof one way or another? I suspect both camps were/are a bit off, and given the histories of the various parties and level of vitriol, I doubt you’re going to get either side to change it’s story.

It pretty much depends on what evidence you choose to believe: just google “swift boat story” or “swift boat lies” or something like that, read a few sites taking into account their partisan bent, and make your own decision. That’s about the best you’re going to get. And you won’t change anyone opinion in the end.

As for the release of the military records proving anything… I thought it had already been “determined” (/sarcasm) that Kerry had his commanding officers in his back pocket due to his connections, thus any proof not in the GOP’s favor would have been swiftly discounted anyway.

@Russ: McCain’s adultery has been pretty extensively researched. http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-divorce11-2008jul11,0,6546861.story

Again, 25 years ago, largely he said, she said. Few people are going to change their minds on whether it was adultery or something else.

Or did you mean Vicki Iseman?

“Kerry could have “debunked” the Swift boat guys if he released his military records…waiting…waiting…”

If you bother to read the stories at the time, the fact is that Kerry only big mistake was to rely on the advice of his campaign manager (can’t recall her name now), in spite of his gut feeling that this was just wrong. He paid a heavy price for that, didn’t he?

So, I’m going to go with my pure gut feeling here.

On a broader level, the fact is that Democrats MUST develop a love for street-fighting. That is, goes lower than the Republicans, become allergic to GOP belts: every time they see one, they must feel an irresistible urge to hit below it, Kung-Fu style, and repeatedly until the opponent is gasping for air and mercy on the floor.

I’d rather have a civilized debate about REAL issues any day of the week. Alas, republicans have become totally addicted to innuendo, character assassination, and swift-boating. Who can blame them? It works…something that tells us a lot more about who we are as Americans (not very flattering isn’t it?) than how dirty they can get.

BTW, for the Dems, it is the ONLY way they’ll be able to get traction with a mainstream media that has, for all intents and purposes, become a puppet of the right-wing forces in this country. Maim, attack, make up stuff, sling the brown stuff until it sticks like Crazy Glue.

The motto of Democratic operatives must become:

“Chaos, confusion, despair among the enemy; fear, uncertainty and doubt among voters. My job here is done”.

As an FYI, I hate every word I’m writing right now. But I’m very conscious of the fact that voters won’t become smarter and republicans won’t change their modus operandi anytime soon.

Life sucks at times, but this is the one we got for now.

“Question: How many idiots does it take to change a light bulb at IndyMac?”

The answer is a tad more complicated than the one you offered Barry.

It takes 1 to hold the bulb, and 50 to rotate the ladder.

“Barry, stick to economics, and lay off the politics. The Swift Boaters did the nation a great service by torpedoing JFK with plain and simple facts.”

Because the nation has done SO well with a second Bush term.

Even the far right WSJ OpEd page was repulsed by the Swift Boaters:

~~~

Shame on the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush
John Kerry saved my life. Now his heroism is being questioned.

by JIM RASSMANN
WSJ, Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:01 a.m. EDT
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005460

I came to know Lt. John Kerry during the spring of 1969. He and his swift boat crew assisted in inserting our Special Forces team and our Chinese Nung soldiers into operational sites in the Cau Mau Peninsula of South Vietnam. I worked with him on many operations and saw firsthand his leadership, courage and decision-making ability under fire.

On March 13, 1969, John Kerry’s courage and leadership saved my life.

While returning from a SEA LORDS operation along the Bay Hap River, a mine detonated under another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river, and a second explosion followed moments later. The second blast blew me off John’s swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.

When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I’d be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry’s boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn’t make it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.

For his actions that day, I recommended John for the Silver Star, our country’s third highest award for bravery under fire. I learned only this past January that the Navy awarded John the Bronze Star with Combat V for his valor. The citation for this award, signed by the Commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam, Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, read, “Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry’s calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.” To this day I am grateful to John Kerry for saving my life. And to this day I still believe that he deserved the Silver Star for his courage.

It has been many years since I served in Vietnam. I returned home, got married, and spent many years as a deputy sheriff for Los Angeles County. I retired in 1989 as a lieutenant. It has been a long time since I left Vietnam, but I think often of the men who did not come home with us.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005460

IndyMac would have gone under with or without Schumer.

However, there are probably a lot of banks out there which are teetering on the edge, and can manage to scrape by, or to get taken over via an orderly transaction, PROVIDED that there isn’t a run on the bank by depositors.

I do think that influential politicians are in a position to exacerbate a tenuous situation at a bank, and are worthy of criticism if they choose to do so.

Records Counter a Critic of Kerry
Fellow Skipper’s Citation Refers To Enemy Fire
Thursday, August 19, 2004; Page A01

Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry’s most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry’s claim that the Massachusetts Democrat’s boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow’s military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to “enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire” directed at “all units” of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat “despite enemy bullets flying about him.”

As one of five Swift boat skippers who led the raid up the Bay Hap River, Thurlow was a direct participant in the disputed events. He is also a leading member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a public advocacy group of Vietnam veterans dismayed by Kerry’s subsequent antiwar activities, which has aired a controversial television advertisement attacking his war record.

In interviews and written reminiscences, Kerry has described how his 50-foot patrol boat came under fire from the banks of the Bay Hap after a mine explosion disabled another U.S. patrol boat. According to Kerry and members of his crew, the firing continued as an injured Kerry leaned over the bow of his ship to rescue a Special Forces officer who was blown overboard in a second explosion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

McCain condemns anti-Kerry ad
8/5/2004 12:59 PM (AP)

Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry’s military service “dishonest and dishonorable” and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

“It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,” McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

“I wish they hadn’t done it,” McCain said of his former advisers. “I don’t know if they knew all the facts.”

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, “I hope not, but I don’t know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.”

Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, “I can’t believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt.”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-08-05-mcain-ad_x.htm

BR:
you are in the Street game long enough to know that a PR firm will do or say anything for a client as long as they are paid. think of all the corporate shills who attack investigative reporters or short-sellers…and then get all quiet once the DoJ or even the SEC levels charges.

Its just part and parcel of 21 st century life.

Re swift-boats: get a grip, respectfully.
Kerry made his war record the centerprice of his candidacy. When at least one of his purple hearts turned out to be for little more than scrape, and there were embellishments left and right (recall the Christmas in Cambodia bit), his record came under question.

dont you think if Kerry was truly innocent of the charges he might just have, I dont know, released his records and engaged them head on?

Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete
Critics Fail to Disprove Kerry’s Version of Vietnam War Episode
Sunday, August 22, 2004; Page A01

When John F. Kerry rescued Jim Rassmann from the Bay Hap River in the jungles of Vietnam in March 1969, neither man could possibly have imagined that the episode would become a much-disputed focus of an American presidential campaign 35 years later.

For Kerry, then a green and gangly Navy lieutenant junior grade and now the Democratic challenger to a wartime Republican president, that tale of heroism under fire has become integral to his campaign. A centerpiece of public rallies, videos and a new campaign advertisement, it has helped distinguish the candidate from his Democratic primary rivals and from President Bush, who spent the war at home as a member of the Texas Air National Guard.

For the Massachusetts senator’s critics, who include three of the five Swift boat skippers who were present that day, the incident demonstrates why Kerry does not deserve to be commander in chief. They accuse him of cowardice, hogging the limelight and lying. Far from displaying coolness under fire, they say, Kerry was never fired upon and fled the scene at the moment of maximum danger.

Establishing the facts is complicated not merely by fading memories and sometimes ambiguous archival evidence, but also by the bitterly partisan nature of the presidential campaign.

An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that both sides have withheld information from the public record and provided an incomplete, and sometimes inaccurate, picture of what took place. But although Kerry’s accusers have succeeded in raising doubts about his war record, they have failed to come up with sufficient evidence to prove him a liar.

Two best-selling books have formed the basis for public discussion of the events of March 13, 1969, as a result of which Kerry won a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart. The fullest account of Kerry’s experience in Vietnam is “Tour of Duty” by prominent presidential historian Douglas Brinkley. It was written with Kerry’s cooperation and with exclusive access to his diaries and other writings about the Vietnam War. “Unfit for Command,” by John E. O’Neill, who succeeded Kerry as commander of his Swift boat, and Jerome R. Corsi, lays out a detailed attack on Kerry’s record.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html

My view is that both of these idiots — Obama (Senator since Nov ’04) and McCain (80 years old 8 years from now) — are completely unqualified for the office of President of the United States. I look forward to my “None of the Above” write-in vote in November.

Why in the world wasn’t a **real** leader _and_ statesman put in the chocks to run for president, like, say, Colin Powell, …or Robert Gates…or….etc.??

I live in Los Angeles, and we I drove past two IndyMac banks on the way to work on the Monday of the “run” it was a little surreal. However, everyone with any sense and money in IndyMac moved their money when Countrywide went belly up.

Schumer only problem is that he told the truth.

Why in the world wasn’t a **real** leader _and_ statesman put in the chocks to run for president, like, say, Colin Powell, …or Robert Gates…or….etc.??

Posted by: Mark | Aug 21, 2008 12:00:48 PM

Mark,

opinions vary, though C. Powell, of My Lai, is noone that anybody should recognize as a “Leader”
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Colin+Powell+My+Lai
if only that was the worst of his detractions..CP is a little more than a bucket-hauler.

Movie Guy – Aug 21, 2008 9:38:22 AM – Barry, are you having memory failure on Senator Chuck Schumer’s role in loosening mortgage qualification standards? Talk about calling the kettle black.

Barry Ritholtz: How about some details please Legislation, excerpt, URL — ANYTHING?

Stuart presents “DJ reports Merrill Lynch chief executive John Thain will have meetings with South Korea’s sovereign wealth fund and key government officials”

what happens if Koreas books are (or become) as dismal as the USA?

wouldn’t it force us to buy up more globalization to extract our borrowed capital? killing us more back here?

Balanced Budgets is the only answer … right?

The only facts NOT disputed:

1. Kerry, when he had a chance, extended his tour of duty for one of the most dangerous duty the Navy offered.

2. Bush, when he had a chance, NEVER went to Vietnam.

Bush vs Kerry was a no brainer, when considering military service to their country.

I think this must be Troll The Swift-Boaters Day, and I didn’t get the memo. (Similar fishing action at Marginal Revolution)

Movie Guy | Aug 21, 2008 1:04:24 PM post.

Barry’s comment:

[BR: Is there anything in that letter that was non-public? It all looks like it was SEC filings and Fed reports — all available online. I don’t get your beef here.]

—-

Show me a news article that the general public would have had read that covered Chuck’s statements in the letter cited.

Whenever a high government official makes the type of statements attributed to Senator Schumer and his Congressional responsibility on the Senate Banking Committee, one can expect fallout and panic.

Average Americans aren’t reading SEC filings nor Fed reports. Come on, now…

They’re reading the local papers and watching the Tube. And maybe some are still reading the Wall Street Journal, but not that many.
.

`This is what I saw that day’
FEB. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune, August 22, 2004

There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago–three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.

One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.

For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn’t deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.

Many of us wanted to put it all behind us–the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry’s service–even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.

But Kerry’s critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they’re not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It’s gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Even though Kerry’s own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.

I can’t pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.

I was part of the operation that led to Kerry’s Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.

But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats–including Kerry’s PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz’s PCF-43–that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.

The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.

Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.

Instructions from Kerry

The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.

We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats’ twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.

The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.

The first time we took fire–the usual rockets and automatic weapons–Kerry ordered a “turn 90” and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.

Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz’s boat at the first site.

It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn’t fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.

We called Droz’s boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch–a thatched hut–maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat’s leading petty officer with whom I’ve checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.

With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.

Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.

John O’Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry’s Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a “teenager” in a “loincloth.” I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.

The man Kerry chased was not the “lone” attacker at that site, as O’Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.

Our initial reports of the day’s action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.

Congratulatory message

Known over radio circuits by the call sign “Latch,” then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a “shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy” and that it “may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers.”

Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry’s and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry’s inclination to be impulsive to a fault.

Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.

It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.

Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.

Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.

The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann’s congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique’s were encouraged.

What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.

Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.

Grub, don’t we accept it now that young men age out of their radicalism?

Heh, maybe that’s young liberal men. Conservatives seem to age into their craziness.

(Sez me, the older, registered, Republican)

hiring lobbyists is a business expense

spend everything they can to “get the jam”

its more fun than paying taxes

and American workers fund the government machine

the Republican view and whats wrong and why America is falling behind the rest of the world

Barry, I have to dispute your contention that factcheck is non-partisan. One of the heads of Factcheck, Viveka Novak, was a key leaker of info to Karl Rove to keep him out of trouble in the Plame investigation:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200512020016

It is my experience that they do a lot of “pox on both houses” sort of stuff when blame for something should be attributed, say 80%/20% to Republicans.
I think if you look at some of their work on the economic policies of the Presidential candidates you might agree. I know they have some post that are of the tone: “John McCain’s proposed tax policy fibs the “balancing the budget” numbers by $3 trillion, Barack Obama is off by $500,000. They are both big liars!

~~~

BR: I am talking about the organization, not a specific person.

And, a little context from your link:

“Recent revelations in the CIA leak investigation indicate that Time magazine Washington correspondent Viveca Novak may have injected herself in the investigation by alerting a lawyer for White House senior adviser Karl Rove in mid-2004 that her colleague, Time White House correspondent Matthew Cooper, might be forced to disclose to a grand jury what Rove had told him about then-undercover CIA operative Valerie Plame

That certainly does not make her a rabid partisan…

for Greg0658

you got the right answer. It appears that far too many “investors” couldn’t care less about the problem.

I like the update, which basically means that BR is being attacked for “Exposing a partisan attack because that is partisan attack.”

And in the vein of that attack, I don’t think BR has any obligation to point out any other partisan attack other than the one that interests him (involving an economic/financial issue).

Just like when I call out a cars salesman for lying, I don’t have to bring up all the lies all the other cars salesmen told me.